351 winchester vs 30 carbine

During the early 1900s, the folks atWinchester learned that their main competitor, Remington, was working on a centerfire autoloading rifle suitable for hunting big game. Note: some of the links below are affiliate links. Many companies now offer bolt, semi-auto, and single-shot rifles chambered in the Legend, but the .30-30 can be found in the same variety. loaded with a 180-grain Oryx bullet to the .358 Norma Mag. the Marlin 336 seems to have a beefier action though and is more easily scoped than the earlier Winchesters. At first, Winchester was tasked with developing the cartridge but did not submit a carbine design. The 32 WSL fired a 165 gr SP at 1390 fps, this duplicated the 32-40 ballistics, the 32-40 was considered good for deer. This is the Winchester Model 62A chambered in .22S,L,LR. With a 200-grain bullet at 2460 f.p.s., it is a heavy-hitter on whitetails. was also the only cartridge of that original Remington family that was based on a different parent case. Included in that have been a whole bunch of deer, hogs and a bear or two. The .351 Winchester Self-Loading (also called .351 SL or .351 WSL) is an American rifle cartridge designed in 1906. And Barnes makes a 200-grain TSX bullet designed for this cartridge that, when handloaded to 2850 f.p.s., allows the .350 Rem. [6] But for the handloader who has taken the time to replace the recoil spring and buffer in the Winchester Model 1907, the .351 SL can be loaded to its original velocities. And the Winner Is 351 Winchester Self/ Loading 12 HRN390552 19 LEE90004 15 LY7738055 19 RCBS09219 5 RED11005 SMOOTH GRAY METAL WITH GOOD WOOD AND A DECENT BORE. An M1 carbine design adapted to a rimless .357 Magnum round would be pretty neat but I can't see there being a big market for it today. Its said that the French used it in World War I, but it probably didnt see much action. That being said,some good did come out of the money and time spent on the development of the Model 1905 and the accompanying cartridges that would help the company in the future. On those gray, moody November days when I am feeling blue I take my Remington Model 141 pump-action rifle in .35 Rem. The M1 used an unusual gas-operated system designed for a special .30 caliber cartridge. Sell your 351 winchester for FREE today on GunsAmerica! I would like some information if possible on approximate value if in good usable condition. The record contains a few examples of carbine-aimed fire felling an enemy soldier at this distance or perhaps a little more. Winchester introduced the .351 SL in the Winchester Model 1907 self-loading rifle as a replacement for the Winchester Model 1905 and the .35 SL. There have been many others, such as the .35-30 Maynard (both in the 1865 and the 1882 versions) and .35-40 Maynard. Mag. The decision for which round is better for a given application should be made with complete information, and this article simply serves as a comparative guide, not the final say. I would also expect it to handle anything in North America from deer to the big bears. The .351 WSL cartridge is a up-powered stand-in for the .44-40 or .45 Colt, throwing a 180 grain bullet (softpoint or FMJ) at 1900 fps. A blowback action in the most basic autoloading action. We offer cheap ammo and bulk ammo deals on the most popular ammo calibers. He can be reached via email at [emailprotected], being one of the very first* intermediate calibers. all were more powerful-and may have been excellent hunting cartridges-but they are gone; rejected by the shooting public and banished to the junk heap of obsolescence. This is an Oviedo 1916 Spanish mauser chambered in .308 Winchester. The .356 Win. from a 20-inch barrel. could have been necked down to .30 and would have made a better round for the M1. It is very accurate, easy to carry and fast on the target. He killed a large 4x4 buck that day. Another $300. With a 10 mph crosswind, the bullet shifts 7.4 inches and 17.8 inches at those distances, respectively. Sold to Iver Johnson in 1983, the Enforcer continued in production until 1986. This .350 Legend from Federal, for example, can launch a 160-grain bullet about 2,300 feet-per-second while this .30-30 fires a 150-grain bullet about the same speed. Mag. I have used the .35 Whelen on critters from bobcats to moose. Due to its blowback action, the rifle kicks like a mule. You might already know this. They have almost all abandoned the cartridge. The .351 WSL did grab a bit of fame, first as a popular rifle for prison guards and then as one of the rifles used to punch a lot of holes in Bonnie and Clydes automobile (although that accolade is in question). All we do know for sure is that it was either Howe or Whelen, or both, who necked the .30-06 Sprg. But these arent normal times. Rifle Carbines are available in 40 S&W, and some use it to hunt deer and wild hogs, but even the 32 WSL and 35 WSL beat it in ballistics. The 35 Remington also uses a bullet about 18% heavier and with over 35% more frontal surface area (.1007 vs .0745 square inches). This is the Winchester 61 chambered in .22LR Long Rifle with a blued metal with a length of 23 1/2in. 351 winchester for sale and auction. USOG 60.7K subscribers Subscribe 40K views 4 years ago Join me for a look at another great investment rifle. I reload for both the 351 and 401 win sl, they do quite well, and are a hoot to shoot. Reply. was introduced in 1955. There are photos of hunters taking a polar bear with a 357 Mag revolver! The Taurus Raging Thirty and AMT AutoMag III were also offered in .30 Carbine.[10]. I spent it all on guns and ammo. Read on to find out. In fact, as Speckin explains, the whole series of Winchester Self-Loaders were designed as smokeless semiautomatic analogs for the saddle carbine role. The trouble is, they didnt sell. Why the public abandoned it so quickly is a mystery to me. Both cartridges use an unusual bullet diameter (.352 and .406 respectively), but its still possible to find soft point, FMJ, or cast lead bullets to use for reloading. The velocity and energy figures in this table are taken from various sources including the Federal, Remington, Weatherby and Winchester ammunition guides and the 9th Edition of the book Cartridges of the World by Frank C. Barnes and edited by M.L. The .358 has 24 percent more energy at the muzzle than the .300 Win. Spl. With a 200-grain bullet the .35 Whelen actually shoots a bit flatter than the .30-06 Sprg. The AR 15 would be good for the 401 WSL. zero-we see that contrary to popular belief, a 35-caliber can be a long-range cartridge. This understandably led to mistakes and confusion among the buying public regarding the proper ammunition for the rifle and hampered sales of what should have been a very popular rifle. I'm kind of surprised the .351 wasn't made originally to use .357 bullets, since that bore size had already been established by that point. The M1 Carbine is VERY reliable, sufficiently accurate for most urban needs, and is feather light. Sure, we experiment a bit with other bore sizes, but in the end it always comes back to the .30 caliber. Standard government-issue rounds reach over 1,500ft/s (460m/s), with factory loads, and handloads producing similar velocities or tuned for more efficient short-barrel performance without excessive blast. Oddly, its bullet diameter is truly .351-inch instead of the .358-inch normally associated with rounds such as .35 Whelen, .35 Winchester or .35 Remington. The 30 Carbine was necked down to accept a 0.308 diameter, 110-grain full metal jacket (FMJ) bullet. The .30 Carbine (7.6233mm) is a rimless carbine/rifle cartridge used in the M1 carbine introduced in the 1940s. The .351 is a great urban defense cartridge, but ammo supplies are extremely limited, and so is magazine capacity. Barnes has a Vor-TX load with a 180-grain TSX bullet and a muzzle velocity of 2900 f.p.s. and is a good cartridge for hunting the thick woods for deer, hogs, black bear or even elk. With the best loads, my Remington Model 700 is one-hole accurate. It has never failed me. Yet, that bore diameter produces some of the best hunting cartridges available. Mag. Check out GunBroker. Winchester took the lessons learned from the Model 1905 in stride and incorporated some changes into the new Winchester Model 1907 rifle and the accompanying .351 Winchester Self-Loading (.351 WSL) cartridge they released a few years later. "the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!". from a 20" barrel. The sad truth is that the active list of current .35-caliber rifles and cartridges is tragically short. One can almost hear the echoes of Norma Mag. 26" Barrel. The Legend could certainly bring down an elk, but possible is not the same as ideal. If youre looking for a do-it-all cartridge, the .30-30 will likely serve you better. The .30-30 Winchester and .35 Remington won't break any speed recordsthere's no doubt about that. There are a few problems with this answer. You cant compare it to todays AR 15s. hit the market in 1895 paired with Winchester's now . The muzzle velocity was stated to be 1850 fps, and the muzzle energy 1370 ft.-lbs. At 300 yards, it has 19 percent more energy than the .300 Win. Please email us if you have questions about any of our product listings. Mag. It would cost into the 800dollar range just to rebuild one. For quality hunting ammunition, expect to pay $30-$45 for a box of 20. Sellier & Bellot: 1947 fps. The result was the M1 carbine.[7]. He became convinced that faster, flatter-shooting cartridges would take game more reliably, and the resulting line of Weatherby Magnum cartridges has been doing just that since he founded Weatherby in 1945. Probably well over half of the production for the last ten years went to police organizations in the United States. Duke's newest prize is a fine-condition Winchester Model 1907 .351 WSL. Hard to find here in Canada. Versatility I believe it never will. 80% BLUE, NICE BORE. It was designed to improve the range and stopping power of the M1 carbine. From a four-inch (102mm) barrel, it launched the standard GI ball projectile at 1,277ft/s (389m/s), producing an average group of 4.18 inches (106mm) at 25 yards (23m); the military decided not to adopt the revolver. However, Winchester experienced great difficulty in the development of their autoloading rifle and the unique calibers designed for it. Shaw rifles 24-inch barrel. GI#: 102196509. Probably over half the Model 1907 and 1910 rifles Ive examined over the years have a cracked forearm. Its a good time to own a rifle chambered in the .350. Still, much like the old man who can rattle your teeth with a punch, appearances can be deceiving. All Types (1000+) When Winchester was asked by Ordnance to develop a round for a new echelon weapon to complement the .45 cal 1911 handgun, their engineers fell back to the basic design of these rounds, adapting the .32 WSL into what was called in development the .30 SL, virtually identical to todays .30 Carbine. It is capable of driving a. The .30 Carbine, for all practical purposes, is a scaled-down Winchester .351 SL. The US .30 cal M1 Carbine is one of the most important developments in the personal defense weapon story, being one of the very first* intermediate calibers to be adopted as standard issue by a nation, and arguably the first purpose-designed PDW caliber in history. Dear Socialists: I have no money for you. They are still around, although finding a pristine example will be tough. Posts: 5,141 . the 32 was the hardest one to come up with, There are a lot of 351 out there and some very nice ones, Thanks for this article and the information in it. It arrived with three other cartridges designed to compete with Winchesters popular lever-action lineup. This is an Oviedo 1918 Spanish mauser chambered in .308 Winchester. These ballistics were far better than the .351 WSL and even put it slightly above the .35 Remington in terms of kinetic energy. In 1968 the 600 Magnum was replaced by the Model 660 Magnum, which featured a 20-inch barrel, but it was never a big seller, and Remington dropped the rifles. Released in 2019, the Legend was designed for use in states that restrict deer hunters to straight-wall cartridges and was billed as the fastest such cartridge currently in production. The US .30 cal M1 Carbine is one of the most important developments in the personal defense weapon story, being one of the very first* intermediate calibers to be adopted as standard issue by a nation, and arguablythe first purpose-designed PDW caliber in history. The .38 Smith & Wesson Special, designed in 1898, rocked the handgun realm with its ballistic performance making it a cartridge for the history books. Other firms and individual designers submitted several carbine designs, but most prototypes were either unreliable or grossly off the target weight of five pounds. Very well cared for rifle, there is a barely noticable very small chip in the stock .Click for more info. First year gun, manufactured in 1939, Pre-WWII. The .350 wins that power matchup, but this 170-grain .30-30 option offers 1,827 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle while this heavier, 180-grain .350 Legend only produces 1,762 ft.-lbs. Everybody agrees that the .358 Win. Cartridges are (usually) widely available and dont cost more than the .350 Legend. The first 100,000 cartridges manufactured were headstamped ".30 SL" (for "self-loading"). By and large, we shooters seem to gravitate to the middle of the road; to bland, yet predictable, mediocrity. As a result, it has approximately 41% higher muzzle velocity with 27% more impact energy than the parent .32 WSL cartridge. Most ammunition makers have a 200-grain load, and Remington also has a 150-grain load with a muzzle velocity of 2300 f.p.s. Versatility refers to the range of animals that could be realistically harvested with a cartridge. With these requirements in hand, Winchester's Edwin Pugsley chose to design the cartridge with a .30 caliber, 100120 grain bullet at a velocity of 2,000 feet per second (610m/s). Remington continues to offer factory ammo, and its 200-grain factory load has a muzzle velocity of 2675 f.p.s., while the 250-grain loads muzzle velocity is 2400 f.p.s. I read back in the 1980s a couple of gunsmith were doing conversation of 30 Carbine rifles to 45 Win. The quest for an acceptable .35 has inspired such impotent wastes as the .35 Winchester Self Loader, once labeled a candidate for the title: Worlds Most Useless Center-Fire Rifle Cartridge.. Every time I use it I ask myself, Whats not to like? Beats me, but nobody liked it enough to keep it in production. Itsnodawayitustabe Registered Joined Apr 12, 2016 The Model 1907 enjoyed a long production run of over 51 years and Winchester finally stopped manufacturing it in 1958. 24 inch barrel. However, the .401 Winchester Self-Loading, which was itself proceeded by the .351 Winchester Self-Loading, and the Winchester Model 1907 and 1910 rifles that fired those cartridges, all filled those roles many decades before anyone ever heard of the 10mm Auto,the AR-15, or the Ruger Mini-14. Rifles; Sako Rifles; Savage Rifles. Just bought the 22 sl. The company has chambered several rifles in the cartridge including models in bolt-action, pump-action and semi-automatic. It was introduced in the bolt-action Model 70 in which it was trustworthy, but boring. Folks tend to duck when they hear the slide action put into play!! The Plainfield Machine Company (later taken over by Iver Johnson's Arms) sold a sporting rifle copy of the M1 carbine chambered for this cartridge but only about 500 were made. Hopefully the forearm wood isn't splintered up. offered the performance level of the .358 Win. Among Federals offerings, the highest BC for a .350 Legend is .259 while the highest BC for a .30-30 is .313. Winchester - Model 70, Target Model, .243 Winchester, 26" barrel. Nosler offers the .350 Rem. If you match the bullet to the game, this is one of the all-time great hunting cartridges. That suggests the difference, at least in part, is due to the bullet. Norma offers factory ammunition, E.R. They truly were ahead of their time, as they were short magnums back when being a short magnum wasnt cool. Having owned several different rifles chambered in .351 WSL and .401 WSL over the years, I can attest to the fact that they are quite good at what they were designed to do: cleanly take North American deer and black bear size game when hunting in close cover where quick shots might be called for. We determine a cartridges shootability by considering its cost, availability, and recoil energy. Ballistics When Winchester designed 350 Legend, we engineered all of the bullets from scratch to be optimized for the new cartridge. The 600 Magnum suffered from a barrel that was too short at 18 inches. crying, My kingdom for a rifle.. This ammunition is often loaded to lower velocities in consideration of older firearms which have not been properly maintained, and large differences are seen over the chronograph relative to vintage .351 SL ammunition. has been offered in just about every rifle action type ever conceived and a few handguns. In the years since, the .35 Rem. The .401 WSL fired a 200 grain .406caliber soft point bullet at 2,140 feet per second for a walloping 2,034 ft-lbs of energy. When we pitted the 30 Carbine vs 5.56, the 5.56 won 7/10 categories and tied in two, thanks to its low recoil and high accuracy capabilities. The .30 Carbine was developed from the .32 Winchester Self-Loading used in an early semi-auto sporting rifle. Auction (19) I think if enough people went online and contacted Winchester and Hornady, and asked them to make up a run of ammo in 351 WSL and 401 WSL in 20 round boxes, perhaps they would make a limited run. Thats a question I just dont understand. Mossberg .22 LR models 340 340A 340B 340M 342 342K 344 344K 346K 346B 350 350K 351 352 352K 353 Rifl Winchester mod. Try Buffalo arms in Idaho for brass and bullets for reloading. As the winner of two out of three categories, the .30-30 Winchester deserves the overall nod. I wonder if some army brass had a 32-20 lever action rifle and thought that a semi auto rifle in 30 caliber would be good for combat? is on the threatened list, this one is on a path to extinction. Whitetail hunting strategies for the next generation. The .35 Rem. The Model 351 C is an AirWeight variation of Smith & Wesson Centennial Model. The Model 1910 rifles were also prone to cracking of the forearm. The barrel is a full 22 inches, like it always should have been, but the foolish design with the huge shark fin front sight turned hunters off, and it was dropped. They cant ride the love-it-or-hate-it controversy of the 6.5mm calibers. Deadshot Boxed Combo Shooting Bag - Unfilled. The story of the .351 Winchester and the .401 Winchester Self-Loading cartridges began with the Winchester Model 1903 rifle chambered in the unique .22 Automatic Winchester Rimfire cartridge. In some ways, the United States military decided this Caliber Battle in 1957. THE USUAL CRACKS IN THE FORE END. factory load is a 250-grain Oryx bullet listed with a muzzle velocity of 2723 f.p.s. would follow that tradition. Both the Legend and the .30-30 are most comfortable in the medium-to-large-game category, but the .30-30 offers a slightly wider array of bullet weights and applications. WOOD HAS A REPAIR AT THE WRIST. From my collection Winchester 1894. The .223's 200 yard energy is given as 603 ft. ), Muzzleloading Modern & Replica Pistols (flint), Muzzleloading Modern & Replica Pistols (perc), United States Patent Firearms Revolvers/Pistols, Century Arms International (CAI) - Shotguns, Henry Orginal Silver Deluxe Engraved .44-40 H011SD 24.5" EZ PAY $351, Smith & Wesson Model 351 PD .22 Magnum 1.875" 7 Rds Black 160228, Smith & Wesson 103351 Model 351 Classic 22 **10 MONTH FREE LAYAWAY**, Smith & Wesson Model 351 Classic AirLite 22 WMR 1.88" W 7 Rnd Capacity New (103351). in its NoslerCustom line with a 225-grain Partition bullet at 2550 f.p.s. For that reason, Winchester decided to build what would become the biggest brother to the preceding lines of self-loaders and the only one that truly was capable of taking big game or of competing on equal terms with Remingtons recently introduced Model 08. WITH BAYONET. Sadly, my favorite bullet diameter, the .35 caliber, doesnt even rate a blip on the American shooters radar screen. Mag.They have almost identical case capacity, but the .358 Norma Mag. Most commercially available loads for the .351 SL launched a 180 grain .351 caliber bullet at between 1,850 and 1,925 fps from a 20-inch barrel, yielding identical muzzle energy to the .30-30 when fired from a 20-inch barrel (rather than a manufacturer's long test barrel). was simply a .308 Win. The muzzle velocity was stated to be 1850 fps and the muzzle energy 1370 ft. lbs. To put this into perspective, a Boeing 737 commercial airliner travels at a cruising speed of 600 mph, or 880 fps. Thanks for your support. Id submit that for most shooters and hunters, cartridges like the .40 S&W and the 10mm Auto are the first things that come to mind when they think of semi-automatic .40 caliber cartridges. But when Winchester chambered the .358 the following year in its unique lever-action, the Model 88, it became a really interesting cartridge. Both clock in around 9 foot-pounds of energy, about half as much as a .308 Winchester. was included in that party is a mystery, as it had no Winchester counterpart. Its too bad that no other companies picked up the 32 WSL, 35 WSL, 351WSL and 401 WSL . In most Caliber Battles, one cartridge clearly offers more power and velocity across a range of loads and bullet weights. Youre also more likely to find a rifle in .30-30, especially in the used market. I have quite a bit of money into these guns now but I have one of each. In both cases, the recoil is the result of the action types used on these early autoloaders. Even today it occupies a strange halfway point between pistol and rifle cartridges, being similar in design to a long pistol round or magnum revolver round with its straight-walled case and round-nosed bullet, but loaded with rifle powders designed for the 18 barrel of the handy little M1 Carbine. I have a 32 sl, 2 x 35 sl,351 and a 401. the Henry's seem to be very solid and the action is danged smooth. Show Only Guns If you broaden your search to the World Wide Web, most online carriers offer twice as many .30-30 options. EARLY 3 DIGIT SERIAL NUMBER 904. This 170-grain .30-30, for instance, drops 7.7 inches at 200 yards and 26.6 inches at 300 yards. When we pitted the 30 Carbine vs 5.56, the 5.56 won 7/10 categories and tied in two, thanks to its low recoil and high accuracy capabilities. round barrel worn finish and cracked butt plate please view pictures for condition. ANTIQUE MADE IN 1891. The first cartridges were made by turning down rims on .32SL cases and loading with .308 caliber bullets which had a similar profile to those of the U.S. military .45 ACP bullets. I'd go with the carbine if you plan to shoot it much. If the .35 Rem. The Remington Model 673 Guide Rifle was chambered in .350 Rem. M870 Remington 12 ga. pump with 'bucking shot' or #2s would suffice best! [5] Most ammunition available today for the .351 SL is produced by a few boutique manufacturers, often using either cast lead bullets or copper-plated bullets or, occasionally, .358 jacketed bullets resized to .351 or .352 caliber. From the Green Goblin (a bolt-action rifle I built on a Remington action), both will produce groups that are sub-minute-of-angle. Jim in Idaho #7914589 07/19/13. I have a .356 Win. and .35 Rem., it was an excellent woods rifle for hunting whitetails. This listing is for ONE Magazine. You want to look for a Marlin Camp Carbine in 9mm. For hunting, it is considered a small-to-medium-game cartridge. Own and shoot both. To put this into perspective, a Boeing 737 commercial airliner travels at a cruising speed of 600 mph, or 880 fps. Please click the above links to take a look at all of the .30 M1 Carbine and .30-30 Winchester ammo we have in stock and ready to ship, and let us know any parting thoughts in the comment section below. Specifically, they had a significant problem developing a caliber powerful enough to be suitable for big game, yet usable in the 1903 type blowback autoloading action. Winchester Model 74 semi auto .22 short. & scope has rust alon WINCHESTER 21 12GA 30 F/M. The .350 Legend has some catching up to do if it wants to rival its 127-year-old predecessor. It seems to me that this would be a good time to bring back these cartridges in a modern semi auto or compact bolt action rifle. EARLY GUN SERIAL NUMBER 194. Manufacturer  Smith & WessonbrbrModel  Model 351 PDbrbrSKU 106228brbrCaliber  .22 MagnumbrbrBarrel 1.875 Stainless SteelbrbrCylinder  Aluminum AlloybrbrOverall L Smith & Wesson 103351 Model 351 Classic 22 Mag 7rd 1.88" Black Stainless Steel Barrel Matte Black Aluminum Cylinder & Frame with Black Polymer Grip & No Internal Lock MFR # 103351 (103351) New Smith & Wesson Model 351 Classic chambered in 22 Mag. up to 0.358 inches and dubbed it the poor mans magnum.. Joined: Dec 2008. I have one, and I like it a lot. To put this into perspective, a Boeing 737 commercial airliner travels at a cruising speed of 600 mph, or 880 fps. Though Winchester Self-Loading Rifles in .351 WSL and .401SL are not in the same league as bolt action rifles chambered in .308 Win or .30-06 Springfield, thats not really a fair comparison. A postwar U.S. Army evaluation reported that "[t]here are practically no data bearing on the accuracy of the carbine at ranges in excess of 50 yards. My pick by far is the 30 carbine for all the previous listed reasons. 98% OVERALL. Sure a .351 would have been better, but weight savings was a HUGE priority for the design of the M1 Carbine. That load actually produced 2825 f.p.s. The 32 WSL duplicated the 32-40 ballistics. With decent ammo most military M1 Carbines in good condition will average 3 to 5 inches for five shots at 100 yards. Heavy, slow, not very accuate, and now days ammo is next to impossible to find. When the 357 Magnum revolvers came out, hunters used it to take an assortment of big and dangerous game. from my E.R. and is probably a better deer and black bear cartridge at woods ranges than the more popular .30-30 Win. Yes. That higher BC allows the .30-30 to maintain a flatter trajectory and buck the wind more effectively. As illustrated in the chart, .243 Winchester rounds - on average - achieve a velocity of about 3180 feet per second (fps) while .30 M1 Carbine rounds travel at a velocity of 1990 fps. southern guaranty insurance company medicare supplement claims address, how many melanistic foxes are there in the world, usc university park campus address,

Ark Dino Mindwipe Command, Articles OTHER